Sleep And CBD With Dr. Michael Grandner – Ep34

We know sleep is critical to health, but in a world that is increasingly busy and filled with stressors of all kinds, getting a good night’s sleep can be difficult. There are many CBD products out there that aim to help individuals get better rest. Do they work? What are the keys to really sleeping well?

Dr. Michael Grandner, sleep expert, Director of the Sleep and Health Research Program at the University of Arizona, and Director of the Behavioral Sleep Medicine Clinic at the Banner-University Medical Center joins to discuss why so many of us struggle with a healthy sleep cycle, and the research he has taken part in.

Insights From The Episode

  • Why a good night’s sleep is important, and the role it plays in our various biological systems.
  • What lies behind problem of sleep issues, and how we can view sleep through a different angle.
  • How Dr. Michael Grandner discovered CBD and it’s usage for sleep aid.
  • What past and current research surrounding the relation between CBD and sleep suggest in terms of validity.
  • How the placebo effect might play a role in our response to sleep.
  • Why individuals with sleep troubles shouldn’t be discouraged if something doesn’t work.
  • What advice Dr. Michael Grandner offers for people with concerns of using CBD products for sleep.
  • What helpful behaviors we all can implement into our sleep routines.

Connect With The Guest

About Dr. Michael Grandner

Dr. Michael Grandner is the Director of the Sleep and Health Research Program located at the University of Arizona, Director of the Behavioral Sleep Medicine Clinical at Banner-University Medical Center, and an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the UA College of Medicine. Dr. Michael Grandner’s research has examined how sleep and sleep-related behaviors are connected to obesity, cardiovascular disease, mental health, neurocognitive functioning, and longevity. He has been a part of a considerable amount of recently-completed research projects and has published over 175 articles and chapters related to matters of sleep and health. He is also a formal speaker on topics related to sleep and health for students, patients, corporations, and athletes.

Episode Transcript

Scott: Hey. What’s happening, everyone? Welcome to another episode of “The CBD Guide” podcast. I’m excited about this one because we’re going to be talking about sleep. I’ve got an almost-two-year-old at home, so over the past two years, sleep has been something that I’ve been struggling with, and we’re going to be talking about how CBD might potentially help with that. There’s so many products out there and things of that nature, so I’m really excited to dive into this.

And joining me to help with this is our guest, Dr. Michael Grandner. And he is the director of the Sleep and Health Research Program at the University of Arizona. He’s also the director of the Behavioral Sleep Medicine Clinic at the Banner – University Medical Center. And his research focuses on how sleep and sleep-related behaviors are related to cardiovascular disease, diabetes, obesity, neurocognitive functioning, mental health, and longevity. So we’ve brought a real expert on the show today to talk about this. Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael: Thanks. Thanks for having me, and thanks for giving me the opportunity to connect with this audience.

Scott: Absolutely. So, as I said, today we want to talk about CBD and sleep. And I actually want to start with a big question to really kind of frame it all. Aside from not being tired, why is a good night’s sleep so important? What are the health impacts for maybe not getting good sleep?

Michael: Yeah, I’m not saying get awesome sleep or else you’re going to die tomorrow or something. I’m not saying that, but what I’m saying is that sleep is a fundamental part of our biology. Why do we sleep? We sleep for the same reason we breathe air, and drink water, and eat food. Because, well, if we don’t, we’ll die, and because it’s just a part of how we’re built. And because of that, it’s tied into many different systems.

So sleep plays roles in everything. From how your heart works and how your brain works and how your circulatory system works, how your immune system works, how all this stuff works together, sleep plays important roles. It’s much easier to change your car’s oil when you’re not still driving it, and this is something evolution figured out a long time ago. That there’s lots of really important functions that happen all over when we’re asleep because we’re not actually engaging with the environment. We have the chance to perform those sorts of maintenance functions. That’s why it touches so many systems.

And so when people don’t sleep well, what happens is those systems don’t work quite as well as they normally would. We’re more likely to have increased appetite at inappropriate times, we’re more likely to not make great decisions, we’re more likely to have a disruptive metabolism and get sick more frequently or take longer to recover. All kinds of stuff, because it touches so many different areas.

Scott: Right. You’ve broken that all down so perfectly. It’s good and healthy to get good sleep. So, okay, it’s important, but, you know, unfortunately, and certainly in today’s modern world and it’s funny we’re recording this now, I actually got a poor night of sleep last night. I woke up early this morning…

Michael: That happens.

Scott: Yeah, and I couldn’t get back to sleep. I was woken up and it was like, no, body’s ready. So many people do struggle with getting just good nights of sleep. And I’m curious, could you frame maybe the shape of the problem? Why do so many people have challenges around this and what does it look like?

Michael: Well, one reason why people have a lot of problems with this is that we live in a society that sees sleep as unproductive time. So we have a lot of pressures to sleep less, to stay up later, because we’ve got more to do because we’ve got all this stuff we got to do. Instead, we see sleep as this cost at the end of the day of like how much time do I have left to sleep, as opposed to seeing sleep as kind of our commute to tomorrow. Where if you have to get to work at a certain time, you wouldn’t say, “Well, I’m going to leave my house as soon as I’m done with everything I need to do and then I think I’m ready to leave my house.” Well, what if you never made it to work on time because you always have more stuff to do? You couldn’t do that.

What we do is we figure out when do we have to leave and how much time do we have? And we should be thinking of sleep the same way. Sleep is an investment in time to get to where we’re trying to go, not a cost of time at the end of the day.

So part of this is this mindset we have. Also, there are a lot of things that keep us up, and we tend not to have really good strategies for fixing it. I mean, we have sleep disorders that we have decent treatments for. Like insomnia is a common sleep disorder. Most people don’t even realize the recommended first-line treatment isn’t actually even medications. Most doctors don’t even know what the current guidelines are anymore. It’s not, it’s actually a behavioral treatment.

And for…if you have an insomnia disorder where it’s taking more than a half an hour to fall asleep or you’re up for more than a half an hour during the night at least three nights a week and it’s going on for at least three months and it’s impairing your daytime function, like that’s a problem and you should get that addressed, and you don’t have to sort of suffer in silence and struggle with it. And we have a lot of sleep apnea in the population where people are up a lot during the night and feeling tired during the day because they’re not breathing and we might not even know it.

So we have a large portion of the population with sleep disorders, but even a larger as opposed the segment of the population that might not have a sleep disorder, but like you were talking about, have occasional light nights of sleep problems that impact their ability to function during the day and want to know what they can do to either minimize that impact or set themselves up to get the best that they can with what they’ve got.

So I would say if you look at the data, about a third of the U.S. population at any given point is reporting some trouble with sleep in some way, which is a ton of people. And that overlaps a lot with the proportion of the population that reports getting six hours or less of sleep on a typical night, which is sort of the cutoff for elevated risk for things like weight gain, diabetes, and heart problems, and mental health issues, and performance issues.

So, yeah, we’ve got…I guess it’s a combination of these pressures, plus all the stresses that we carry around. And plus we don’t often have a lot of great solutions, which is why I’m glad you’re talking about this because a lot of the people who are turning to, say, CBD, some of them might have an insomnia disorder and then they get frustrated when it doesn’t work. But some people it might be appropriate for in terms of fixing sleep problems, but I guess we’ll get to that later.

Scott: Right. You were breaking down so many amazing things. My mind’s a little bit blown to the way you described sleep as more like a commute rather than a cost because I even find myself I do that. You know, if I’m up late, whether it’s working, reading, playing a video game or something, and I’ll think, well, I’m going to get seven if I fall asleep, I’ll get six, you know, whatever it is. And you kind of do that sort of analysis in your head that’s not necessarily the most optimal way to think about sleep. So, okay, to CBD, the main topic of today’s show. Michael, how did you first hear about CBD and maybe associated CBD products being used as sleep aids?

Michael: So really by talking to people. So my history of doing research, linking sleep issues with cannabis-related products actually goes back a bunch of years, looking at existing data sets and what’s been gathered, and what are patterns of use in the population. And one of the things that I found initially was that the relationship between…and this was before sort of a lot of the legalization, which changes a lot of things, but a lot of times the pattern of use seemed to suggest that there were a subset of people who were using it in the population who also had pretty significant sleep problems, which suggested that a lot of people may be self-medicating some sleep problems with this. And so, first of all, I’m going to say, I’m going to be totally transparent in terms of my reading of the data for your listeners. I’m not going to try and spin anything any one way for good or for bad.

Scott: Sure.

Michael: And the truth in the data is that things are not all good, but they’re also not all bad either. They’re kind of complicated, just like life is, right? Things are kind of complicated and it looks like there were subsets of people for whom maybe this was helpful and it actually did well. And it looks like there was a subset of people for whom it wasn’t helpful.

And then as time went on, started looking into this a bit more, really starting to learn… And I’ve been working with patients, working with organizations. Some organizations would have me come in and talk about what are the links between various cannabis-related products and sleep because they’re different. And sometimes they had a way that if it was an athletics organization, it was a banned substance.

Like that’s one thing. If it was an older adult facility that was looking for, you know, talking about helping people manage pain, that’s sort of a different story. But either way, the story is sort of the same in terms of what the data show. And it shows that the landscape is kind of complicated and that’s okay. We’re still learning a lot and we’re still learning better how to target things.

It looks like the main take-home message is that THC and CBD are very different for sleep. THC has a little bit cleaner of a story. It seems that… I can get into more of the details, but it seems like at least in the short term, THC can reliably much of the time help people fall asleep faster and stay asleep a little more, but it does have effects on REM sleep and it looks like it tends to work best short-term but not long-term. It stops working after a while.

Whereas CBD seems very different. CBD doesn’t seem to have the same as reliable of an effect. It seems that for some…and it really depends on the study you’re looking at, whereas with some studies they’re showing that CBD worked great for helping with sleep. Some studies actually show that it made sleep worse, and a lot of them, the change was all within the margin of error relative to a placebo.

And what that tells me is that there’s varied ability in terms of the response, which means either there’s different groups of people that respond in different ways, but they’re different types of sleep issues respond in different ways or where there’s different types of CBD that work in different ways. And it looks like, to be totally honest with everyone who’s listening, if you comb the scientific literature as it is right now, there’s all kinds of biologically plausible reasons why CBD might help with sleep and how it impacts anxiety and relaxation and biochemically, all this stuff. There’s a reason why it makes sense. But in application, it seems to be murky. Where some people it seems to help, some it doesn’t, and I think we don’t have the answer yet to exactly figure out who would have, to be totally honest.

Scott: That really gels with a lot of the things we’ve discussed on this show with CBD in general because everybody’s body is different. There are so many different types of products, formulations, potencies, all of this. So it makes sense to me that when you’re talking about this, we wouldn’t have this uniform, yep, works for everybody the same way, and it’s all gravy.

And I think we’ve also talked about the show a lot about when you’re talking about any kind of product and certainly a sleep aid potential product like this, there’s no silver bullet necessarily where it’s like, yep, just take this and all your problems will be solved. Because, as you’re outlining above, the reasons for maybe people struggling with sleep are varied in and of themselves, whether it’s the type of disorder or what other behavioral things might be happening, stress, all of this, their routine. I kind of want to speak to that because I’m curious if you’ve seen how maybe individuals can work something like a CBD for sleep product into their routines for better sleep, how maybe there’s almost a wellness lifestyle impact.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think you make an excellent point in terms of expectations. Another substance that lots of people get wrong is melatonin, where melatonin isn’t a sedative most of the time. Sometimes it’s a placebo and sometimes it can be a little bit of a sedative and sometimes it can make people a little drowsy, but it doesn’t really work as a sedative. It mostly tells your body it’s nighttime. So that’s why it tends to be a usually useless sleep aid for people who have insomnia problems because people with insomnia, their body knows it’s nighttime, it’s just like you still can’t sleep.

And with CBD, you might have a similar story, where the thing that it does might be helpful, but we might need more information to know how best to target it. As we’re learning more… I mean, the problem is for a long time research was mostly stifled and unable to be conducted because of legality issues.

Also, there was all these complications. So another thing for listeners to notice is that any research on this in terms of any kind of real-world setting that predates legalization by very far, you’re talking about people who are using it. Most of the time a lot of those studies where people were self-selected to using it, these are people who were using something that at that time was illegal. So there were people who were more likely to be doing things that were illegal, people who may be more desperate, people who are more treatment-resistant because they tried everything else before they turn to this and things like that.

So, of course, the data are going to be weaker in a population that have already been selected to have failed everything else because…which is why they’re going to something like this. So you gotta be a little wary about some of these trials. The newer ones are probably much better.

And in terms of understanding how to better target it, honestly, I think…just thinking as a scientist, like we don’t have enough data to make accurate predictions, but we also know that it’s safe enough most of the time, that if you’re the kind of person for whom it will work, then you may know that before I could predict whether you are going to or not. And if it doesn’t work for you, you may know that before I can predict whether it’s going to or not in terms of if you’re using it, it works for you, then it’s probably okay. And if it doesn’t, it’s not your failure.

If this was as strong of a sedative as a prescription sedative, sleep aid like an Ambien or more or something like that, it wouldn’t be sold over the counter. It would be regulated as a drug anyway. So you got to get your expectations in check. Don’t just take it thinking it’s going to knock you out or it’s some sort of herbal Ambien. It’s not. It isn’t. I’m sorry to say, it really isn’t. It doesn’t mean it’s nothing either, it just means it’s not that.

Scott: Right. And it’s one of those things where…and I’m glad you mentioned melatonin because that’s another thing I’ve talked to a lot of people and they’ll say “Melatonin, melatonin.” And a lot of the CBD products will actually include melatonin within their formulation. And I know in my experience because I’ve had challenges with sleep, I sort of fold it into my bedtime routine, and an idea of, well, I’m trying to go to bed at the same time every night. And I go, and then I’ll take my CBD with melatonin, drink a glass of water, whatever it is, wind down, read a chapter of a book, and then turn the lights out, and go to bed. So would you agree that there are…with these products, if it doesn’t just knock you out, lot of it, maybe some of the benefit can be that sort of routine behavioral aspect of it?

Michael: A couple of things to say there. Number one, there are huge placebo responses in sleep, which is, from a scientific perspective, is complicated, but in a real perspective, It’s a good thing. And just between you and me and everyone who’s listening, if I told you to spin around three times before getting into bed, and you are someone who says, “Oh, I’ve got a lot of sleep problems,” and you did that, and if I just asked you how well that worked, if you were open-minded, you might actually say, “Yeah, this is working,” because part of what happens is people don’t sleep as badly as often as sometimes they think they do when they have a problem. And so it’ll work sometimes, where sometimes you’ll sleep bad, and sometimes you’ll sleep fine, and then you’ll attribute it to whatever it is you’re doing. So there’s just natural variability.

Plus your body has a lot of natural ability to overcome barriers to sleep. It just holds onto some of those barriers. And by doing something silly like spinning around three times if I told you it was going to work, in the back of your mind, you’d say, well, okay, I can overcome some of these barriers, and it lets your own natural ability to do it.

So part of this could be placebo effect, but if there is an effect, it could operate through a lot of different ways. So for some people, it’s not about sleep, it’s about relaxation. And if you have something that’s helping you to relax and detach, it’ll help you with sleep even though it’s not touching anything having to do with sleep-wake regulation at all, which is removing a barrier, which is relevant. So there’s lots of potential ways in there.

Another way to think about this is that it doesn’t have to be a sedative for it to be helpful, where part of what it might be doing, even if it’s only dealing with sort of pain and discomfort, well, maybe that’s a barrier too. So sleep gets…things get confused with sleep because the improvement in sleep might just be a consequence of the actual thing that it did, and it doesn’t have to be a strong sedative to be helpful.

Scott: That is such a great point because it’s getting me thinking too. So many people take CBD products to help with anxiety. And I know I’ve struggled with anxiety, and if I’m lying awake, ruminating, and anxious about whatever the next workday or whatever it might be, that’s standing in the way of me drifting off to sleep and calming down. So if I’m taking something and then that helps relax me for whatever reason, then that’s removing a sleep barrier, right?

Michael: Yeah. And if it works, great, and if it doesn’t work, that’s okay because there are more solutions out there. And I try to tell everyone who’s listening that I run into people all the time who’ve been fighting with balancing stuff and sleep for years. You should look into…there’s a field of what’s called behavioral sleep medicine. It’s those of us who are especially experts at insomnia, but especially any kind of non-medicine treatment for sleep problems and insomnia, it actually tends to be the best step…the behavioral treatments for insomnia tend to outperform medications anyway because it’s all about reprogramming your brain to sleep using its natural ability to. It’s actually recommended above medication. So I mean, when people are out there struggling, do research, find stuff, try stuff, but if you’re at your wit’s end, there is help out there.

And there are those of us out there who know what we’re doing because what you may have a problem that’s just…it’s not that this wasn’t a good solution, it just wasn’t the right solution for your problem. And you’re not on your own. You’re not alone. We can help. If you’ve got a more severe insomnia disorder, you’ve got tools for that, so you’re not alone. That’s all I want to say, especially because a lot of people could be turning to stuff out of desperation. I just want to say a lot of people come into clinic and they say, “Oh, I wish I knew about this 10 years ago,” and so now everyone listening does.

You can look up…so the Society of Behavioral Sleep Medicine has a website. And so they’ve got a directory of people who do this, and you can find somebody in your state. There’s another web…there’s a CTTI directory run out of the University of Pennsylvania that is also free, and it lists everyone around the world who sort of does this. So if anyone needs help, just know that whatever it is you turn to, if the CBD helps, awesome. If it doesn’t, you’re not out of luck.

Scott: I think that is so important that you’ve kind of laid that out too because I think too often people come to whether it’s a CBD product or something else, and that’s kind of, they’re like, “Well, this is the last shot,” and that’s not true. That is not true. So I think that’s really, really good insight there.

I want to talk to…because there’s all sorts of other products out there for sleep, and, you know, you hear the big stuff. You know, you got your Ambiens, you have a lot of these other types of things, and I know that there’s a lot of anxiety out there that some have, and I know I’ve have in my life because I haven’t necessarily gone for some of these because there’s that concern of becoming dependent and the negative impacts of, okay, well, now I’m using something that does truly zonk me out, but then now I can’t sleep without it, or whatever it might be. What might you say to someone who maybe has these kinds of concerns for a CBD product and if they’re trying to take that for sleep or mixing it with something else or what have you?

Michael: I would say that because there seems to be a huge amount of variability of what’s on the market, similar to the issue with supplements, where there’s a lot of supplements that have good data behind them, but in terms of their raw form of a molecule and compound of interest. But then once it makes it onto a shelf somewhere, there’s a lot of links in the chain that may be weak, and that, you know, something might be a little different.

So because of some of those issues, not saying everything is all wild west and you can’t believe anything, it’s just, you know, the real world is complicated and getting stuff onto shelves sometimes causes changes in what else is in it and what affects its degradation and what affects bioavailability and all this stuff. So I guess what I would say is just going eyes open that you can’t totally predict what you’re going to get. And as long as you’re okay with a little bit of that uncertainty, totally fine.

And it just also means that it’ll be good to…as the industry matures and starts learning a little bit more how to do better and be as effective and helpful for its customers as they can, this will hopefully improve. But for now, I mean, I guess you kind of have to just embrace the fact that you don’t know. So what’s it going to interact with? You can predict. Because it’s…you know, it was cleared to be able to be over the counter, which means it’s probably not going to interact too badly with most things, but keep eyes open, I guess, is what I would say because you can’t be 100% sure either way.

Scott: Right. I think that’s solid advice. And then too, when you are selecting your products, try to get as much information as you can about that product. And there’s all sorts of different CBD companies, and I’m again sounding like a broken record here, but, you know, what kind of third-party testing was done? What can you find out about their sourcing? What they’re putting in the product? All of these types of things. That eyes open is just a good philosophy, I think, for anything you’re going to put into your body, but certainly if you’re taking things to help you with sleep there.

Michael: I mean, even prescription medications have degrees of variability. We’re not machines consuming widgets. This is a biological system that’s dynamic and always changing. And it’s human nature to try and control it as much as we can, and we create these products in as much control as we reasonably can put under. But even in the best situations, you’re talking about a molecule that exists in an environment, in a context where things may change, and once it enters a biological system, it could be variable. So I guess that’s what I would say that I wish I could have a more firm answer. And I could, and it would be easy to say like, “Do this, don’t do this,” but the truth is, there’s a lot of gray. But that’s okay because there’s a lot of gray in life, and we do the best we can with it.

Scott: Right. And hopefully things will continue to become clearer as we do more studies and research on all of this.

Michael: That’s why research is so important because it gets to answer some of those questions.

Scott: Exactly. And actually, again, to that point, Michael, have you come across or do you know of any other, I guess, potential in other cannabinoids or natural chemicals that maybe offer promise or there’s ongoing research for help with sleep and what might that entail that you’ve come across?

Michael: There’s a bunch. I mean, we just published another paper on sort of a new polyphenol blend. And then there’s other people doing work in this area too, but honestly, if we ran into each other on the street and you said, “I’m looking for a non-medication strategy for improving sleep, what is your best bang for your buck suggestion?”

What I would say, all context aside, what I would say is what you need to do is first figure out if you have a sleep disorder, and if you do, get treatment. Go to a doctor, don’t worry about dealing with it yourself. I mean, if you were sad and blue and needed a mood picking up, that’s one thing. But if you had clinical depression, don’t try and fix it yourself, go find a psychologist or psychiatrist. Like you need help with that. If your muscles are sore, that’s one thing. But if your arm is broken, go to the doctor, first of all.

Second of all, let’s say you’re dealing with a more minor sleep issue, what I would say is first thing to do is don’t spend time awake in bed. Before trying anything else, what the data show, the most effective non-medication strategy for fixing sleep problems is give yourself enough time to wind down before getting into bed. And if you’re in bed for more than 20, 30 minutes and you’re awake, you must get up and then try again later.

But what happens is the number one cause of chronic insomnia is people spending extra time in bed awake, not sleeping, which then dilutes the ability of the bed to create a sleep cycle, which then changes the bed to…turning into the dentist chair where you get in there and your mind wakes up and you’re responding to all kinds of mental stuff, where your brain won’t turn off and all this stuff because you programmed it by spending all this time awake in bed.

And if you want the bed to equal sleep, you can’t always control the sleep side of the equation but you can control the bed side and we program that. That strategy of being religious about only being in bed when you’re ready to sleep, and if you can’t sleep to get up, that alone will actually outperform prescription sleep aids a lot of the time, and I would always start with that.

And then if that’s not enough, then start going into other things like, you know, using light, maybe using melatonin, maybe using other supplements, maybe using some of this other stuff. But I actually start with getting out of bed if you can’t sleep. It’s counterintuitive. it seems like it makes no sense, but trust me on this one, the data are shockingly strong on that being a long…it’s short-term, you might sleep less tonight or tomorrow, but in the long-term you’re reprogramming your ability to sleep in bed. You’re training yourself. You’re like potty training yourself for sleep in bed. That’s what you’re doing.

Scott: I’m glad you said that because I had that this morning when I woke up. Literally, I tried and it was about 30, 45 minutes and I couldn’t do it. I’m like, well, I’m getting up and starting the day.

Michael: You don’t want the bed to become the dentist chair. It’s like, if you go to the gym and you work out there, even if you’re tired and hungry, you get to the gym, you can get into the zone. Where if you sit down at your desk at work and you don’t do personal stuff there, all you do is work, it can get you in that zone just by being in that place.

But if all of a sudden at the gym you’re also eating lunch and socializing and then at your desk, you’re also…you’re just there all the time, so you’re also doing all your personal stuff there too and paying your bills and all this other stuff, then the ability of that place to produce that response gets diluted and it no longer helps you get in the zone. And you want the bed to get you into the zone for sleep, you don’t want to dilute it, so you then have to.

Scott: Michael, thank you so, so much for joining me on the show today, sharing so much great insight. And if folks want to learn more, maybe they are having some sleep challenges, they want to find out maybe some solutions, where can they do that? What other recommendations might you have for them to visit?

Michael: So there’s behavioral sleep medicine, there’s CBT-I doc directory. You can get to my website, I can connect you. My contact information is there. My email is easily findable. I don’t mind getting random emails from people who’ve heard me on stuff say, “Hey, I heard you on this thing. I’ve got this question.” I don’t mind.

The American Academy of Sleep Medicine is the main organization of the medical doctors who do this. They’re more doing the medications and sleep apnea stuff. Our behavioral does more of the insomnia stuff. The National Sleep Foundation is a good one too. They’re more in terms of education advocacy, but yeah, no, there’s lots of good organizations out there. It’s so much better than it was even 10 years ago. There’s a lot more out there. And there’s also a lot of crap out there too. So again, if people run into some things like, wow, this sounds too good to be true, shoot me an email. I’m happy to be the guy you know who does sleep stuff, who can help sort this through for you.

Scott: Fantastic. Thanks again so much, Michael.

Michael: Thank you. Have a great day.

Scott: You too.

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